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  '64 1/2 to '68 1/2 -- The Classic Mustang
  351w timing problem

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Author Topic:   351w timing problem
woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Guys I need help. I am having problem with the timing on my 1930 ford - 351w. After a rebuild the 351w will only run good when I advance the timing to 40 degrees BTDC. It also overheats if I run it at 8 degrees where it used to be. It also has only 8in. of vacuuum a 8 degrees (goes to 19in. at 40 degrees BTDC) Things I have tried. new water pump, new thermostat, checked TDC & balancer is OK with timing tape, new distributor, new cam, radiator cleaned, enriched carb. The 351w has new aluminum heads, new intake and carb, bored 30 over with new pistons, rods, comp cam(that replaced a new Crane), new double roller chain and gears, all new bearings.
Walt

Stinkynutz
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, usa
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 09-09-2004 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stinkynutz        Reply w/Quote
Boy does this sound familiar. I had the same exact problem with my 289. I ended up taking out the motor, and will go through it once I get the new motor in place. I wish I had some advice for you. Like you, I posted questions here - but to no avail. My only guess (at this point) is that my cam is off - but I won't know for sure until I tear the motor down. Other things I tried when I was in your shoes: new distributor, coil, wires, carb switch. All of which made no diff. I wish you luck.

capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 8777
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-09-2004 11:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woford:
checked TDC & balancer is OK with timing tape,
Walt
[/B]


are you the tape is on correctly?
BTW welcome to m&m

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html

FoMoGo
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-09-2004 12:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FoMoGo        Reply w/Quote
Make sure that your firing order is correct for your cam.

Clark
Gearhead

Posts: 749
From: Rowlett,Texas
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-09-2004 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clark        Reply w/Quote
You defintely have my sympathy, I am one of those others that are enjoying the same problem as you. I just installed another cam and will let you know what happens. I did check the firing order and even switched it to verify, also looked at everything during the teardown all looks good

------------------
69 393W Sportsroof Deluxe

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 01:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
At first I didn't know there was a difference in timing tapes. But I found a ford tape and aligned the tape with top dead center and ran it according to the directions. The TDC on the balancer aligned with the timing tab at TDC and the tape ran exactly with the marks on the balancer. I hoped it was off. Thanks for the suggestion, keep-um coming. I hope you Ford guys can teach me something. I am an old Chevy drag racer.
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by capri man:

are you the tape is on correctly?
BTW welcome to m&m



woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 01:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
FoMoCo I checked that the first thing and a couple times more. I have been through the engine once and the machine shop has been through it 2 times and I have had it out of the car 6 times. I put another distributor in last night, this is a race MSD distributor that has the advance locked down, it is timed at 38 d.BTDC. I ran about 20 miles at highway speed last night and it didn't overheat. But I wonder what it will do without the advance. Normally I run a MSD distributor and a MSD-6AL box. I am wondering if the machine shop put the correct harmonic balancer back on it when I got it back the first time. The TDC aligns up on the balancer, is there any other way to check it?
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by FoMoGo:
Make sure that your firing order is correct for your cam.

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 01:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Clark when we first rebuilt the 351w I put in a new crane cam, lifters, chain and gears. After I changed everything else we changed the crane for a comp cam, lifters, chain and gears. No difference. Let me know how yours works.
Walt
quote:
Originally posted by Clark:
You defintely have my sympathy, I am one of those others that are enjoying the same problem as you. I just installed another cam and will let you know what happens. I did check the firing order and even switched it to verify, also looked at everything during the teardown all looks good


woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Stinkynutz you know exactly where I am with this thing. Maybe between all of us we can figure it out. I even went as far as replacing the alternator with a 140 amp unit after a guy told me that my old one wasn't big enough to supply my big electric fan.
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkynutz:
Boy does this sound familiar. I had the same exact problem with my 289. I ended up taking out the motor, and will go through it once I get the new motor in place. I wish I had some advice for you. Like you, I posted questions here - but to no avail. My only guess (at this point) is that my cam is off - but I won't know for sure until I tear the motor down. Other things I tried when I was in your shoes: new distributor, coil, wires, carb switch. All of which made no diff. I wish you luck.

Stinkynutz
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, usa
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 09-09-2004 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stinkynutz        Reply w/Quote
Walt, this problem is a pet peeve of mine -being that I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, so I'd really like to figure this out. Other thoughts and things I didn't do (from easy to difficult):

1. Try switching the wires for other firing orders (thought about this for a while and thought "how could this thing idle so well with an incorrect firing order" If you're real good, you also should be able to observe cam firing order by turning the motor over and looking at the damper (with the covers off).

2. Stick on a timing wheel and a dial indicator (I still may try this one)

3. Remove cam and check lobes visually and with calipers/micrometer (very doable)

4. Rocker arm ratio? A stretch.

5. Bad lifter(s) #2 above would show this.

6. Internal vacuum leak (assuming your ears are sore from inserting vacuum line looking for external leaks - mine were) I did the "hand over the carb trick" and the motor died out so I think I'm ok there.

Like you, I thought about electrical stuff for a while, but I didn't think that would impact the timing as observed with a light clipped to #1.

Let's keep this post alive. This drove me nutz (still does). With the $$$ you've invested in that mill, you must really be going crazy.

FoMoGo
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-09-2004 06:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FoMoGo        Reply w/Quote
TDC on the damper is located 40* from the centerline of the keyway & crankshaft. Also you have to use the correct timing tape for the circumference of the damper. The early dampers are 6 1/2" dia. the circumference = 20.41". Try bringing #1 piston up to TDC, check & see if 0 on the damper lines up with the timing pointer.

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Here is the latest.......After swapping the distributor (with the advance locked down I was able to drive it 130 miles at 65/70 mph. that is a first. It ran great. I am going to try it again Saturday, take it to the Shades of the Past show in Pigeon Forge 120 miles away. The timing is set at 38 d. BTDC and it never got over 200 and as soon as I got off the interstate it backed down to 190.
Walt


quote:
Originally posted by Stinkynutz:
Walt, this problem is a pet peeve of mine -being that I'm somewhat of a perfectionist, so I'd really like to figure this out. Other thoughts and things I didn't do (from easy to difficult):

1. Try switching the wires for other firing orders (thought about this for a while and thought "how could this thing idle so well with an incorrect firing order" If you're real good, you also should be able to observe cam firing order by turning the motor over and looking at the damper (with the covers off).

2. Stick on a timing wheel and a dial indicator (I still may try this one)

3. Remove cam and check lobes visually and with calipers/micrometer (very doable)

4. Rocker arm ratio? A stretch.

5. Bad lifter(s) #2 above would show this.

6. Internal vacuum leak (assuming your ears are sore from inserting vacuum line looking for external leaks - mine were) I did the "hand over the carb trick" and the motor died out so I think I'm ok there.

Like you, I thought about electrical stuff for a while, but I didn't think that would impact the timing as observed with a light clipped to #1.

Let's keep this post alive. This drove me nutz (still does). With the $$$ you've invested in that mill, you must really be going crazy.


Stinkynutz
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, usa
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 09-09-2004 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stinkynutz        Reply w/Quote
Walt,

Your temporary solution is pretty much the same thing I did to get the thing so I could at least drive it around. What I did using a stock rebuilt distributor was to run the vacuum advance directly from the manifold (instead of carb ported vacuum). That allowed me little total advance effect from the distributor at higher rpm (only the mechanical portion). What I found was that since (like you) I had to run way ahead on initial timing, that once the distributor added 35 deg. it really ran like crap. Missed like crazy. Both my and your solutions are band-aids. Something else is wrong, and one of these days I'm going to figure it out.

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
The 40* part sounds interesting I must be in screwing up somewhere there. I think the tape was a 6 1/2, not sure. The markings on the tape aligned up exactly with the damper. Will any early model 351w damper work on on my 69 351w? I found an early 70's that is in great shape and the price was right.....free. But paybacks are hell. I was very disappointed that the Damper TDC lined up with the pointer. I will measure the damper to see what it is.
Walt
quote:
Originally posted by FoMoGo:
TDC on the damper is located 40* from the centerline of the keyway & crankshaft. Also you have to use the correct timing tape for the circumference of the damper. The early dampers are 6 1/2" dia. the circumference = 20.41". Try bringing #1 piston up to TDC, check & see if 0 on the damper lines up with the timing pointer.

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-09-2004 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
I agree on the bandaid fix. After this week end the front end is coming off again. I am going to take the ideas you guys have suggested and check those and check TDC again. The weird thing is it runs good, but......I am going to try the other damper to see where it's TDC lines up. The A-model is a light car, I punched once to see if it had any bottom end and did a 180. 180 minus 38* timing equals??????????
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkynutz:
Walt,

Your temporary solution is pretty much the same thing I did to get the thing so I could at least drive it around. What I did using a stock rebuilt distributor was to run the vacuum advance directly from the manifold (instead of carb ported vacuum). That allowed me little total advance effect from the distributor at higher rpm (only the mechanical portion). What I found was that since (like you) I had to run way ahead on initial timing, that once the distributor added 35 deg. it really ran like crap. Missed like crazy. Both my and your solutions are band-aids. Something else is wrong, and one of these days I'm going to figure it out.


grego37
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004

posted 09-10-2004 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for grego37        Reply w/Quote
Re-establish your TDC.
make sure its correct.

remove dist cap, but put a mark on the outside body of the housing indicating where #1 is on the dist cap
turn motor over with remote starter until rotor is pointing just at your mark (#1)
at this point you are at TDC, or 180 degrees off. To tell which one it is, have #1 spark plug out and have your finger in the hole while turning it over with remote starter.

TDC is At the point where your rotor is just lined up with your #1 mark, and the piston just came up and pushed air passed your finger. Do a few revolutions to make sure.

Where ever your timing pointer is in relation to your balancer make a line with white-out, or just cut the TDC portion out of your timing tape. This is TDC.
re-install plug, and dist cap.

use a timing light that has a dial back.(MSD doesnt reccomend using these, but i've never had a problem, frequency interference?)
Start motor, point light at timing pointer, turn dial on the light until the TDC mark on the balancer is at the pointer, check what the reading is on the dial. "This is your initial timing"
and depending upon how much centrifical advance you have in your distributer, add that to your initial for total timing.

example:
your initial timing reading was 12 Deg.
and the advance bushing (stop) in your MSD dist. is 25, your total timing is 37deg.

to varify that number, or if your using a different dist. after you get your initial reading at idle, raise RPM's to 3500 or where ever your engine has full advance (when the mark stops climbing), dial back timing light until The TDC mark is lined up with the pointer and read what the dial on the timing light says "this is your total advance"
All readings are going off the TDC mark
so if you have the wrong timing tape or some other balancer where the markings aren't accurate , it doesn't matter. you've varified your TDC as "true"

As to how much timming your engine requires, thats a whole different chapter. Each engine has its own specific needs.
Initial timing:
I was told to give it as much initial as it will take as long as it still fires back up when its hot, say if you have 14 deg. initial and you shut it down when its nice and hot and you go to fire it back up and it doesnt want to turn over or has too much of a load, back the initial timing down until it fires back up as it did when cold, repeat until you find a good result.
Total timing:
Each engine is different and requires different ammounts of total timing. Trial and error is all I can say, take it around the block a few times see what it likes.Rocker knock = too much timming
dont forget your wrench.

In my history of timing endevours , mine usually fell into 10-13 deg. initial, with 34-36 total.

Call MSD, they're helpful most of the time
good luck

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-10-2004 01:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
I read quickly through your reply and called MSD and the guy told me it must be something else, but hey it was worth a try. I will give this a try.
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by grego37:
Re-establish your TDC.
make sure its correct.

remove dist cap, but put a mark on the outside body of the housing indicating where #1 is on the dist cap
turn motor over with remote starter until rotor is pointing just at your mark (#1)
at this point you are at TDC, or 180 degrees off. To tell which one it is, have #1 spark plug out and have your finger in the hole while turning it over with remote starter.

TDC is At the point where your rotor is just lined up with your #1 mark, and the piston just came up and pushed air passed your finger. Do a few revolutions to make sure.

Where ever your timing pointer is in relation to your balancer make a line with white-out, or just cut the TDC portion out of your timing tape. This is TDC.
re-install plug, and dist cap.

use a timing light that has a dial back.(MSD doesnt reccomend using these, but i've never had a problem, frequency interference?)
Start motor, point light at timing pointer, turn dial on the light until the TDC mark on the balancer is at the pointer, check what the reading is on the dial. "This is your initial timing"
and depending upon how much centrifical advance you have in your distributer, add that to your initial for total timing.

example:
your initial timing reading was 12 Deg.
and the advance bushing (stop) in your MSD dist. is 25, your total timing is 37deg.

to varify that number, or if your using a different dist. after you get your initial reading at idle, raise RPM's to 3500 or where ever your engine has full advance (when the mark stops climbing), dial back timing light until The TDC mark is lined up with the pointer and read what the dial on the timing light says "this is your total advance"
All readings are going off the TDC mark
so if you have the wrong timing tape or some other balancer where the markings aren't accurate , it doesn't matter. you've varified your TDC as "true"

As to how much timming your engine requires, thats a whole different chapter. Each engine has its own specific needs.
Initial timing:
I was told to give it as much initial as it will take as long as it still fires back up when its hot, say if you have 14 deg. initial and you shut it down when its nice and hot and you go to fire it back up and it doesnt want to turn over or has too much of a load, back the initial timing down until it fires back up as it did when cold, repeat until you find a good result.
Total timing:
Each engine is different and requires different ammounts of total timing. Trial and error is all I can say, take it around the block a few times see what it likes.Rocker knock = too much timming
dont forget your wrench.

In my history of timing endevours , mine usually fell into 10-13 deg. initial, with 34-36 total.

Call MSD, they're helpful most of the time
good luck


grego37
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004

posted 09-10-2004 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grego37        Reply w/Quote
Running Hot?

once you find the timing it likes, you need to adjust the carb.
with your vacuunm that low and running hot, I would guess your air/fuel screws are out of adjustment. Too lean.

I was told as a starting point to have these screws turned out 1 1/2 turns, and using a vacuum gauge at carb you want to achieve the highest vacuum, or you can do it by ear (highest idle) work them evenly, turn one 1/8 of a turn, then turn the other 3. repeat until you achieve the highest vacuum reading, or highest idle.

For cooling tips as far as fans, thermostats, blueprinted waterpumps, high pressure radiator caps, and running straight water (unless you live in a freezing area)
Go to stewartcomponents.com
"cooling masters"

good luck

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-13-2004 10:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by grego37:
Running Hot?

once you find the timing it likes, you need to adjust the carb.
with your vacuunm that low and running hot, I would guess your air/fuel screws are out of adjustment. Too lean.

I was told as a starting point to have these screws turned out 1 1/2 turns, and using a vacuum gauge at carb you want to achieve the highest vacuum, or you can do it by ear (highest idle) work them evenly, turn one 1/8 of a turn, then turn the other 3. repeat until you achieve the highest vacuum reading, or highest idle.

For cooling tips as far as fans, thermostats, blueprinted waterpumps, high pressure radiator caps, and running straight water (unless you live in a freezing area)
Go to stewartcomponents.com
"cooling masters"

good luck


woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-13-2004 10:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Guys I made a trip of about 290 miles with the bandaid fix. I left out Saturday morning about 8am with cool weather. Drove about 140 miles and engine stayed about 195/200. I had to set in traffic about an hour temp was great about 185/190 the whole time. On the way back the outside temp was 86* engine ran about 205, when I came to a hill it climbed to about 210. After the sun went down temp was back 195/200. Since I have already paid for a new griffin rad and a high vol water pump I am going to put them on whenever they get here. While I am at it I am going to check the TDC again, maybe even pull the timing cover and check the cam gears. Keep the ideas coming.
Walt


quote:
Originally posted by grego37:
Running Hot?

once you find the timing it likes, you need to adjust the carb.
with your vacuunm that low and running hot, I would guess your air/fuel screws are out of adjustment. Too lean.

I was told as a starting point to have these screws turned out 1 1/2 turns, and using a vacuum gauge at carb you want to achieve the highest vacuum, or you can do it by ear (highest idle) work them evenly, turn one 1/8 of a turn, then turn the other 3. repeat until you achieve the highest vacuum reading, or highest idle.

For cooling tips as far as fans, thermostats, blueprinted waterpumps, high pressure radiator caps, and running straight water (unless you live in a freezing area)
Go to stewartcomponents.com
"cooling masters"

good luck


SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-14-2004 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere        Reply w/Quote
Are you guys sure you have the right balancers and timing chain covers? If you have an early balancer with the markings oriented for the timing mark on the driver's side, and a later timing cover designed for the '70 and later balancer, then you'd get some wacky timing readings.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

grego37
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004

posted 09-14-2004 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grego37        Reply w/Quote
ditto
you need to re-establish true TDC with your pointer and balancer. (check my previous post )

69witha429
Journeyman

Posts: 4
From: Yaphank, NY
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 09-16-2004 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69witha429        Reply w/Quote
I have the same problem with my 429. I'm wondering if the distributor is on the wrong tooth. Wouldn't that also show a timing way too far in advance? I figured that I would realign the distributor on the next tooth clockwise and retime it there. Is that a bad idea?

Clark
Gearhead

Posts: 749
From: Rowlett,Texas
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-16-2004 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clark        Reply w/Quote
I can't speak for the others but I am finishing my cam replacement and have checked and double checked that TDC is correct all the way around. Hopefully will be firing her up this weekend

------------------
69 393W Sportsroof Deluxe

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-16-2004 06:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
I am at a loss. The last thing I tried, I took it to the guy that built the engine. This is a race car shop. He put in another distrubutor. The only difference between my MSD and his was that his had the advance locked down. I am waiting on a new radiator and then I am going to check everything again, maybe try another damper and check the timing gears again.
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by 69witha429:
I have the same problem with my 429. I'm wondering if the distributor is on the wrong tooth. Wouldn't that also show a timing way too far in advance? I figured that I would realign the distributor on the next tooth clockwise and retime it there. Is that a bad idea?

grego37
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004

posted 09-16-2004 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grego37        Reply w/Quote
If this is the guy who built the engine. And it's a 'race car shop'
He should be able to find your problem and correct it with his eye's closed.

You might want to ask if he degreed the cam, and how he installed your crank gear. Most of the quality timing chain and gear assy. give you 9 possible keyway positions.

Tell him you want your money back, unless he fixes it.If he cant fix it
good luck

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-16-2004 08:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Long time friend, and builds most of the Ford drag, dirt, and pulliing engines in the area. I agree he should be able to find it. He runs an EXP with a mega HP 351w and a 240in wheel base rear-engine dragster with a big 351w. He said he degreed the cam, plus I had him change the cam and gears from a Crane to a Comp Cams the last time he went through it. I hate to second guess him but??? It has got to be something so simple that I will be stuned when and if we ever find it. Years ago I was a certified fire apparatus mechanic and for the past 25 or so years a long time chevy drag racer and camaro/vett restorer and street rodder. This is my first Ford, trying to keep the rod all Ford. Its an internal combustion engine.....I was hoping it was one of those Ford weird things that you Ford guys would laugh about and say well green ass all Ford guys knew this.
Walt Keep the hits a coming.


quote:
Originally posted by grego37:
If this is the guy who built the engine. And it's a 'race car shop'
He should be able to find your problem and correct it with his eye's closed.

You might want to ask if he degreed the cam, and how he installed your crank gear. Most of the quality timing chain and gear assy. give you 9 possible keyway positions.

Tell him you want your money back, unless he fixes it.If he cant fix it
good luck


woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-16-2004 08:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
This is the car:
1930 Ford 2 door sedan with a 1969 351w, edlebrock; aluminum heads, intake, carb. The engine was bored 30 over, new pistons, recon rods, crank turned 10/10. all new bearings, brass freeze plugs. New Crane cam (then changed to Comp), new double roller and gears, new lifters, new oil and fuel pump. Jet Hot hugger Roller tipped rockers, headers, MSD distributor, MSD 6Al, New aluminum water pump, new oil pan, new starter. The radiator is a Walker made for the 1930 with a Ford engine. I run a 16 inch 2100cfm electric fan with shroud. The trans is a fresh C4 with the cooler seperate from the radiator. I rewired the entire car with an EZ Wire kit during some of this over heating down time. New gauges (even tried a mechanical temp gauge).
It ran well until a road trip to Louisville, KY. A 750 mile round trip it used 7 1/2 quarts of oil. (they said the heads were shot so I went with the aluminums) I decided to go for the rebuild and the machine offered to (after the machine work) to put it together for $150 and knowing the guys I thought was a deal. The engine never over heated before the rebuild and the timing was around 8 degrees. Sorry for the novel, buts thats the rest of the story.
Walt


quote:
Originally posted by woford:
Guys I need help. I am having problem with the timing on my 1930 ford - 351w. After a rebuild the 351w will only run good when I advance the timing to 40 degrees BTDC. It also overheats if I run it at 8 degrees where it used to be. It also has only 8in. of vacuuum a 8 degrees (goes to 19in. at 40 degrees BTDC) Things I have tried. new water pump, new thermostat, checked TDC & balancer is OK with timing tape, new distributor, new cam, radiator cleaned, enriched carb. The 351w has new aluminum heads, new intake and carb, bored 30 over with new pistons, rods, comp cam(that replaced a new Crane), new double roller chain and gears, all new bearings.
Walt

Stinkynutz
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada, usa
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 09-17-2004 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stinkynutz        Reply w/Quote
Walt, not that I have this thing figured out, but I thought I'd share some similarities.

Like you, my motor ran hot when rebuilt. Also like you (I believe), I'm running the original crank, damper, timing cover, pointer, etc. If I set my timing by the marks on the damper (which DO correspond to TDC), the car is running way retarded and thus gets hot as hell - and is also a dog. If I set my timing with the "highest vacuum/idle speed method", the marks show it way (like about 20-25 deg.) advanced. This is WITHOUT any vacuum or mechanical advance. With this setting, and reconnecting the vacuum, the total dist. advance at higher rpm moves the mark so far around the damper (big time advance), that it misses terribly. One more thing that's weird: I can never get the engine to ping! - no matter how far it advances - all it does is miss at high advance.

Walt, does all this also sound familiar?

One more similarity: I bought this engine as a rebuilt by someone else. I have probably assembled 20-25 engines, mostly FE fords, and have never had this problem.

We WILL figure this out.

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-17-2004 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
It was using a quart of oil evey 100 miles, kinda wish I would have put a couple cases of oil in the back and just changed the filter every once in a while.


quote:
Originally posted by Stinkynutz:
Walt, not that I have this thing figured out, but I thought I'd share some similarities.

Like you, my motor ran hot when rebuilt. Also like you (I believe), I'm running the original crank, damper, timing cover, pointer, etc. If I set my timing by the marks on the damper (which DO correspond to TDC), the car is running way retarded and thus gets hot as hell - and is also a dog. If I set my timing with the "highest vacuum/idle speed method", the marks show it way (like about 20-25 deg.) advanced. This is WITHOUT any vacuum or mechanical advance. With this setting, and reconnecting the vacuum, the total dist. advance at higher rpm moves the mark so far around the damper (big time advance), that it misses terribly. One more thing that's weird: I can never get the engine to ping! - no matter how far it advances - all it does is miss at high advance.

Walt, does all this also sound familiar?

One more similarity: I bought this engine as a rebuilt by someone else. I have probably assembled 20-25 engines, mostly FE fords, and have never had this problem.

We WILL figure this out.


seaweed
Gearhead

Posts: 146
From: MA.
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 09-17-2004 11:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaweed        Reply w/Quote
The fact that you can't get the engine to ping,does that mean the springs & weights in the dist. are too heavy ?? & won't allow for vac advance ? I have the oppsite prob. 428 rebuilt 3000 miles ago,timing set @ 6 degrees using 93 octane, when I get on it it pings like crasy,then I get off fast. So I think I need a little heavier springs.It advances too easily.-- Very interesting posts .When you get this resolved I will be waiting---S.

grego37
Gearhead

Posts: 411
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004

posted 09-17-2004 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for grego37        Reply w/Quote
Seaweed,
Yes, that can mean your advance comes in to fast. you should go to next size combo down on the springs.
Believe me I got really good at pulling my dist (MSD Billet) and changing the spring combo and advance stops.

BUT, do you know your true compression ratio?

These days the pump gas quality has gone down hill. Gone are the days when you can have 10.5 :1 and use premium gas.

I Just finished my 408windsor with alum heads, set it up with 9.8:1 comp. to play it safe. I really wanted to use straight pump gas.

seaweed
Gearhead

Posts: 146
From: MA.
Registered: Dec 2000

posted 09-17-2004 10:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for seaweed        Reply w/Quote
Grego ,I believe my C.R. is somewere around 9.5 to 1 with c.iron heads.If I was using alum.heads then I could get away with 10.5 to 1. Are there any octane boosters out there that you can share ? Thanks---S.--- I hope you guys realy find that prob.

MidLifCrisis
Gearhead

Posts: 673
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 09-18-2004 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MidLifCrisis        Reply w/Quote
Hi, I want to join your group of "Out-of-Time-Anonymous"
Just like you guys, rebuilt 289, 30 over, Comp Cams XE262H, stock distributor, put together by the machine shop. Using 93 octane.
I had the motor out and back to the machine shop twice. Once for a sticking wrist pin, the other for a rod knock. The motor ran great after the first tries. After the last time, it doesn't seem as strong in the low end.
It started pinging after it was put back in the third time, and as I test and change things it will stop pinging like I have it cured. Then when it cools down, under 180-190 degrees, it pings again.
Recurved distributor, dialed in for 28 degrees max advance. Put in lighter springs, put back heavier springs, changed vacuum from timed port to full port, then no vac advance, rejetted carb for possible lean condition. Have had the motor running on 15-18 degrees initial advance down to 0 degrees initial advance. Yes it ran on zero.

I am going to have a friend check the valve adjustment. I am tempted to pull the timing cover. Winter is coming, so it may happen in the months to come. If I find the CURE, I will gladly post. Please report any success you may have. Charlie

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-19-2004 01:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Charlie,
I was lucky in one respect I didn't have to drive the car. I have been messing with this mess for 2 years. But I made the last big show in my region. Did it with 38* timing and advance locked down. I am going to take mine down to the timing chain and gears. Found another 351w damper, may try it. I would love to find something wrong. I have ordered a new griffin aluminum radiator and it should be in this week. So when I get a chance I am going to check every thing again. Good luck (hope one of us finds something).
Walt
quote:
Originally posted by MidLifCrisis:
Hi, I want to join your group of "Out-of-Time-Anonymous"
Just like you guys, rebuilt 289, 30 over, Comp Cams XE262H, stock distributor, put together by the machine shop. Using 93 octane.
I had the motor out and back to the machine shop twice. Once for a sticking wrist pin, the other for a rod knock. The motor ran great after the first tries. After the last time, it doesn't seem as strong in the low end.
It started pinging after it was put back in the third time, and as I test and change things it will stop pinging like I have it cured. Then when it cools down, under 180-190 degrees, it pings again.
Recurved distributor, dialed in for 28 degrees max advance. Put in lighter springs, put back heavier springs, changed vacuum from timed port to full port, then no vac advance, rejetted carb for possible lean condition. Have had the motor running on 15-18 degrees initial advance down to 0 degrees initial advance. Yes it ran on zero.

I am going to have a friend check the valve adjustment. I am tempted to pull the timing cover. Winter is coming, so it may happen in the months to come. If I find the CURE, I will gladly post. Please report any success you may have. Charlie


FoMoGo
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-20-2004 05:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FoMoGo        Reply w/Quote
Handy tool to establish TDC. After bringing #1 cylinder to TDC verify 0 on the damper lines up with the pointer on the timing cover.
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=3316&prmenbr=361

FoMoGo
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-20-2004 05:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FoMoGo        Reply w/Quote
Do you guys have the vacuum line from the distributor connected to a vacuum port on the carburetor that is above the throttle plates?

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-20-2004 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
I have a MSD mechanical advance distributor. Plus I have the advance locked down right now so I can drive it at highway speeds without heating up. Keep suggesting ideas, it is probably going to be simple when I find it.
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by FoMoGo:
Do you guys have the vacuum line from the distributor connected to a vacuum port on the carburetor that is above the throttle plates?

FoMoGo
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-25-2004 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FoMoGo        Reply w/Quote
Did you check for vacuum leaks?

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-25-2004 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
I have taken ether and a small tube and run it around the intake and the carb. I guess this is an old timer trick. It will speed up if it finds a leak. No luck. To compound my problem, the new radiator came in..........of course it was made wrong and had to send it back...........I was asurred a new one would be rushed in next week. If it wasn't for bad luck.........When it gets here I am going to recheck everything.....
Walt


quote:
Originally posted by FoMoGo:
Did you check for vacuum leaks?

Clark
Gearhead

Posts: 749
From: Rowlett,Texas
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-28-2004 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clark        Reply w/Quote
This is a happy day for me and my 69 393W. After trying to find why after my rebuild that the car would die when I put it in gear and why I needed so much timing to get my car to idle correct, the cam was the problem! I went in and removed my cam and installed a new one and everything cam right in and worked as advertised. I am not sure if that was the only thing that helped but I am glad it is back to driving!

------------------
69 393W Sportsroof Deluxe

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-28-2004 02:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clark:
This is a happy day for me and my 69 393W. After trying to find why after my rebuild that the car would die when I put it in gear and why I needed so much timing to get my car to idle correct, the cam was the problem! I went in and removed my cam and installed a new one and everything cam right in and worked as advertised. I am not sure if that was the only thing that helped but I am glad it is back to driving!



woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-28-2004 03:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
I went from a crane cam to a comp cam, but it was about the same lift and duration. The cam is just a mild (for the sound) cam. I didn't even have to change the converter. And before someone says thats the probelem, I do not run the trans cooling lines through the radiator, I have a separate trans cooler on the frame. Maybe I should have went with a real radical cam.........
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by woford:

Clark
Gearhead

Posts: 749
From: Rowlett,Texas
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-29-2004 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Clark        Reply w/Quote
I won't tell you that the cam is your problem but the one I removed was for a 302 and was removed from a car supposedly in good condition. Maybe the cam did not get a good break-in or maybe changing the firing order has something to do with it even though everyone says it won't. What kind of rockers do you have? I have crane rollers and on this last build I just took out the play and did not add back a 1/4 or 1/2 turn cold?

------------------
69 393W Sportsroof Deluxe

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-29-2004 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
Clark,
I have roller tipped rockers I don't remember the brand. Looks like I may be putting this project on hold for a little while. I will find out (hopefully) tomorrow if/when I will have another knee surgery, if so this will be my 7th.............
Walt

quote:
Originally posted by Clark:
I won't tell you that the cam is your problem but the one I removed was for a 302 and was removed from a car supposedly in good condition. Maybe the cam did not get a good break-in or maybe changing the firing order has something to do with it even though everyone says it won't. What kind of rockers do you have? I have crane rollers and on this last build I just took out the play and did not add back a 1/4 or 1/2 turn cold?


FoMoGo
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From: Motor City USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 09-29-2004 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FoMoGo        Reply w/Quote
What year is the 351W in your car?

woford
Journeyman

Posts: 29
From: Bristol, VA, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-30-2004 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for woford        Reply w/Quote
1969 351w

quote:
Originally posted by FoMoGo:
What year is the 351W in your car?

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