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Author
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Topic: Front frame rail replacement help.
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-03-2005 11:11 AM
 
Hello,I am new to this site. So far I have found a lot of good information. I started the tear down of my 67 fastback about 3 months ago. I started on the pass. side first. I started by removing the toe board and replaced it with a new one. Then I decided that it would be a good time to replace the pass. side frame rail. There was practically nothing left of it anyhow. I removed from the rear apron to the rad support. I took the shock tower because I will be using a mustang 2 fronts suspension. I kept the torsion bar bracket and the round bar that is under the engine (I forget the name) so i could rest the new rail on top of them. The driverside is still complete up tp the rad support. The problem is I didnt take very many measurements. I figured I could just look on a buddies car and get mesurements from his. I should have left the shock tower and sway bar braket in place. Anyways what is the distance front and rear inbetween the frame rails.? should I weld the inner and outter frame rail before I fit it in the car? Tell me im not doomed.....lol. any help would be a great help. let me know how to put pics on here and i will take a pic of what i am talking about.
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-03-2005 11:28 AM
Welcome to M&M! Are you Doomed? No. You're just a litte wiser now! I'm a big fan of these charts (see link). These tell you the factory tolerances for your car. I used this and a tape measure/water level to double check my car before welding in the inner/outer rockers on my vert. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FRAME-CHART-1967-1968-1969-1970-FORD-MUSTANG-COUGAR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6762QQitemZ7990887618QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW Good luck!
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-03-2005 01:05 PM
I just bought one. I hope the chart looks as good as the one in the picture. I got one of those photo copied assembly books (long timre ago)for another project and i could barely read it. Anyways thanks for the site.I guess its better that I cut most of it away because the car was in a slight front ender. thanks again. Maybe that guy will give you a comission for sending him buyers....lol.
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-03-2005 01:43 PM
I wish... Just make sure you understand how to use the chart. You'll need to be "square" AND "plumb". When you measure, make sure you are measuring both ways! I supported my car with jack stands under the rear end (which keeps the rear frame normally loaded). The front end was a bit trickier. I supported both the front and back of the frame extensions on mine (on both sides). I then "leveled" the entire car front-to-back and side-to-side as best as possible by adjusting the jack stands. This takes time and patience. Right-to-left is easy. Front to back is tough - you need to use the frame chart & the water level to do this using the reference points indicated. The end result was that I could then check square (with a string &/or tape measure) and plumb (with the water level) quite easily as I went along with my repairs. I'm sure other people have done this differently, but this made sense to my brain at the time. Again, take your time and make sure you understand what you are doing. Good luck!
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-03-2005 01:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Twirly Bird:
you need to use the frame chart & the water level to do this ...
P.S. My "water level" is pretty low-tech, but effective. It is a piece of clear plastic tubing with water and red food coloring. I had someone hold the maniscus (the bottom of the bend of the water as you look through the tube) against the bottom of the reference hole. I then raised/lowered the other reference point until the maniscus was at the same point on the other reference hole. I hope that makes sense...
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-03-2005 02:19 PM
Thats great info. I was just planing on using my magnetic stanley bubble level. That should work.
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-03-2005 02:22 PM
Where did you place your levels at??
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-03-2005 03:12 PM
On my 66 'vert, I checked the side-to-side level using the bottom of the radiator support and the rear bottom of the tail-light pannel (actually, it is the support piece under the tail-light pannel). That way I new I wasn't twisted in the middle. For the front-to-back "level", I placed the water level at the reference points on the frame rails. The chart should give you two reference points for each frame rail (front and back). I used these to make sure each rail was "level". I then made sure each rail was level to each other (while keeping the side-to-side level correct). This prevented the center section of the car (the unibody) from dipping or rising. Make sense? The buble level should work great for side-to-side. I used the water level for front-to-back. If you figure out a different way, please share!
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-03-2005 03:35 PM
Ok I understand now. So I should pretty much just go ahead and remove the other frame rail also huh? It is just as bad. Because if I leave it then when I go to cut it out later all that leveling will be out of wack. Or should I just do one side at a time and just relevel??also when you did your frame rails did you weld both halve together before you placed the rail or place the inner half then weld the outter?? thanks for all your help. This will be printed later and hung in the garage next to the frame chart.
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-04-2005 10:01 AM
Just to be clear, I have done the middle section of the unibody (inner&outer rockers, convertible pans, torque boxes). You're doing the end sections (frame rails). The frame chart applies to both of our projects. Since I have not done the frame rails, the following are my suggestions... I'll let someone else answer specific to their experience on frame rails. (DDenton perhaps ???). My opinion is that you should do one side at a time. From the chart, you should be able to get the dimension for the frame rail extension that goes under your floor boards. If you work forward from there, you should be able to get the next dimension (which will be just behind the shock tower on the frame rail). I'm also assuming that you would have the rear of the car leveled at this point. After the rear end of the car, and the back of the front frame rails are all leveled, the front of the frame rail *should* be in the right position once the other points are correct. Personally, I would make sure that the other frame rail (that has not been removed yet) is firmly supported where it extends under the floor boards. Then do your best to level it at the other two points as well (I'm not sure how rigid the other frame rail is). Now, what I'm not clear on is the condition of the remaining frame rail. If it is deformed from rust or from the wreck your car was in, you may not be able to get it level. I would suggest talking to an expert if you are having trouble getting it to line up. Essentially, you're compensating with jack stands and blocks since you don't have a frame table. Sorry for the long email. Hopefully others will chime in if they see something I missed or something that can be done differently...
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-04-2005 10:54 AM
Your opinion looks good to me. The other frame rail is missing almost the whole outter part from the shock tower to the rad. support. I think what happened in the fender bender was the front bumper supports where it was rusted the most was weak at that point and the bumper just fell off at the frame rails. It just got the hood and left front fender. Nothing to bad from what I can tell. The car has sat for many years in a feild since 82 from the last inspection sticker. Then I saved it 3 months ago.A friend of mine is after me to build a frame stand for it out of 1x1 tubing and casters. Im not sure if it would be worth it. Do you kow of anyone that has build a frame stand? Thanks for your help. Randy
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-04-2005 03:10 PM
No, but this IS the most important part of your car. Unibodies are only as strong as their weakest weld. Take your time. Measure many times. Make sure you understand what you are doing. Make sure you understand how each piece fits in 3-D in relation to every other piece. Did I say take your time and measure often? How is the rest of your car after sitting outside for that long?
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-05-2005 07:47 AM
OH dont worry I plan on taking my time. I am thinking about getting a body cart so the body will be stable. The rest of the car is just as bad. There is no drivers side floorfrom toe board to seat platform. The cowls are just about gone. The trunk is no more you can see the ground in many spots. The only thing that was good about this car was the rockers. Even the roof has rust cancer spots. I take this project on to finish it in a year. This will take awhile. This will be the first one I do. My dad and I did a 69 camarro years ago and I have done things here and there since then. But this was a complete car just forgotten about. I plan on making a clone Im not sure if I want the elenaor or gt 500 yet OR my own take. You wont believe this but I found the build sheet the other day also. Not like that does me any good because the car will not be original. Well this is getting long.thanks randy
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-05-2005 09:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Twirly Bird:
Welcome to M&M! Are you Doomed? No. You're just a litte wiser now! I'm a big fan of these charts (see link). These tell you the factory tolerances for your car. I used this and a tape measure/water level to double check my car before welding in the inner/outer rockers on my vert. http://cgi.ebay.com/ ebaymotors/FRAME-CHART-1967-1968-1969-1970-FORD-MUSTANG-COUGAR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6762QQitemZ7990887618QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW Good luck!
Those are just pages from the back of a Ford shop manual, in the chassis volume. Not exactly 'very unique and hard to find' as stated in the ad. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'05 Mercury Sable LS 3.0L DOHC 24V Duratech V6
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-05-2005 01:45 PM
Steve did you send me some frame chart pic email?I hope those werent the ones I paid for on ebay because I cant read them. Thanks for all the help.
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-08-2005 08:38 PM
Hey steve I was wondering if you could send me that frame chart again just the top and side view the under hood view came out great. I cant read the side or top view. I noticed that you wrote in some measurements and those are the ones that I need. Maybe if you send it as an attachment and bigger. Mine came through all blurred or possibly if you could rescan it for me or just email me the A,B,C section with the measurements That would be cool. The frame chart i bought on the internet was the same one you sent but barely any measurements. Thanks in advance. Heck if you make a copy and send it to me Ill pay you for it.
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-09-2005 09:37 AM
I hope they didn’t charge you shipping and then just email you the stuff.I have a 68 manual and it might have the same measurements as the 67 then again it might not. It depends if Ford changed the locations or eliminated some of the holes used for reference. I might be able to scan the stuff.
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Ed S. 68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC Bla-Bla-Bla
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-09-2005 11:44 AM
Yes that would be great. Steve scaned me a frame chart also but I couldnt read it very well. No it was just weird timing. I bought a "rare frame diagram off the internet and steve just happened to send me one via email. They were 2 different sorces. Steves had a heck of alot more info and measurements on it I just cant read it. So yeah If you could scan me some charts from your manuel id be greatful. Yes they should be the same.thanks randy
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Twirly Bird
Gearhead Posts: 226
From: Central PA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 08-09-2005 12:25 PM
If the charts you bought were not as detailed as the examples that the seller posted in his auction, you may want to pursue this with the seller. I've bought two sets (65 &66) and a friend (who showed me what these charts were) bought the 67's. The ones we bought were all very well detailed.
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randyb67
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Hampstead, NC, USA
Registered: Aug 2005
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posted 08-09-2005 01:56 PM
You should see this chart. There are no Inside or outside diameter for the front frame rails. There is only 5 measurements on the front frame and they use the upper suspension front mounting hole and steering gear and idler arm bracket. That ebay ad made it sound like there was 41 some odd measurements and 2 pages of info. The ad even had an A,B,C section that tells you were everything is and were to measure from. I got 1/2 a page of info. Guess Im just pissing up a tree here. Hell I should have just bought a shop manual. Twirlybyrd its not your fault believe me I needed the help. Its mine for not asking the guy how much info it is and if there is outside diameter inside etc. like his display ad. No biggie Ill make do with what I have. Now steve sent a very well measured diagram I just couldnt read it. Any chance you could rescan and send it again  . Everyone thanks for your help Ill get it going soon. Thanks Randy
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-09-2005 06:42 PM
It wasn't me that sent you a chart, sorry. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'05 Mercury Sable LS 3.0L DOHC 24V Duratech V6
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68 S-code GT
Gearhead Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-09-2005 11:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by randyb67:
There is only 5 measurements on the front frame and they use the upper suspension front mounting hole and steering gear and idler arm bracket.
That kind of sounds like what is in the 68 Ford Shop manual. I’ll see what I can do about scanning it. My wife has it hooked up to her laptop so if I ask nice enough maybe I can get her to do it. ------------------
Ed S. 68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC Bla-Bla-Bla
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55
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