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Author
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Topic: Matching numbers
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Harley
Gearhead Posts: 204
From:
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-21-2006 06:03 PM
 
Can you experts tell me what numbers need to match for a car to be considered "numbers matching"? Where on the car should I be looking?
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-21-2006 06:50 PM
I learned here at M&M that there are two schools of thought on this. Some folks consider it enough if the engine and the body numbers match. Others like to toss in the transmission as well.
In the case of your Stang, the body number is the VIN (dash pad plus inner fender for most years). The engine may have a partial VIN stamped in the block, typically driver's side, at the back, or there may be no number at all. If there's no number on the block, you can find other ways to show that's it's likely the original engine, but you can't have "numbers matching".
And in my experience of Stang trannies, C4s and C6s have a partial VIN stamped on the top.[This message has been edited by Fastback68 (edited 01-21-2006).]
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Dreamcometrue
Gearhead Posts: 903
From: New-Brunswick,Canada
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 01-21-2006 07:05 PM
Hi Harley.
Check this post:
http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/012152.html
It did answer a few questions.
Rino 
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mustangs68
Moderator Posts: 27681
From: Hampton Va MCA#39406 M&M #12 Member Mustang Club of Tidewater
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-21-2006 10:02 PM
Ah my Friend Simon,
to me matching numbers on a Mustang means ALL the numbers nmatch,Let's not forget the Warrenty Plate,if it calls for a Black interior and it red the numbers won't match 
Sam
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 1480
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-21-2006 11:08 PM
The title, door tag, engine compartment stampings and/or windshield VIN tag should all have the same numbers.
If the car is one that has a VIN or partial VIN stamped on the engine, then that should match also.
Not all early mustangs have the engine block vin stamping, so in those cases the date codes from the engine and trans should be within the 2-3 months preceeding the build date of the car.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-22-2006 05:33 AM
Hmmm ... well I surely didn't invent the term, so I will tread carefully here I can't see how whether the interior matches the data plate equals "numbers matching". To my mind, all the term means is that one set of numbers matches with another set of numbers. Not that the color of a seat matches with a number.
Anyone else agree with me? A minority of one here?
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 1480
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-22-2006 06:06 AM
"Numbers Matching" was originated by collectors of GM products to indicate a car has not been molested and is for the most part all original. It was easier on GM car because they numbered the engine and trans to match the chassis, so you could tell the car never had an engine swap and it would lead you to believe it was in better original condition. Ford eventually started doing the same thing.
To what extent a person can call a car 'numbers matching' is a matter of opinion, just like the way guys throw around terms like frame-off restoration, rotisserie restoration, one owner, etc.
Yeah, I love the guy selling a one owner car after he bought it from the guy who bought it from the original owner. Or the guy who did a frame-off resto on a unibody car that doesnt' have a removeable frame.Usually when I see a guy advertising a car as numbers matching it means he is trying to get more for the car than it is actually worth and he needs to pad the description as much as possible to convince a buyer to spend that much. Probably has A/C that blows 'ice cold' and has 'never seen snow' either.
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mustangs68
Moderator Posts: 27681
From: Hampton Va MCA#39406 M&M #12 Member Mustang Club of Tidewater
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-22-2006 11:16 AM
Simon I'm a hardass on this.When you tell me the numbers match they dang well better LOL..Sam
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-23-2006 03:02 AM
Now Sam, look deeeeep into my eyes, and tell me what is in your heart 
You say that paint and interior had better match the data plate for a car to be "numbers matching".
Is this:
(a) What you truly believe to be the meaning of "numbers matching", or
(b) what you ardently feel "numbers matching" SHOULD mean?
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 1480
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-23-2006 03:37 AM
Sam, I'm with you.
If someone wants to pull out the 'numbers matching' card it better match everywhere I can find a number.
Likewise with the 'all original' verbage. If you advertise a car as all original and I can spot simple things liek wrong battery, wrong tires, wrong radio....well its not all orignal then is it?And while we're at it, what constituts 'low mileage' in your mind? I see cars with 70k - 85k miles advertised as low mileage. To me, I'm thinking more like 40k and less.
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mustangs68
Moderator Posts: 27681
From: Hampton Va MCA#39406 M&M #12 Member Mustang Club of Tidewater
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-23-2006 05:51 PM
Simon on the Mustang,to me, to be a "matching number" car not only the drive train should match but the Warranty Plate info also.With the information now available to us from source as Marti and Mustang Decoder books its not hard to tell if someone is BSing. If your saying it's Concourse it best have the quality to back up the statement as Scott remarked,correct Batt,radio and other small items we "Street Driven" Mustang don't worry about. I don't care if the paint,interior etc has been changed just don't BS me and say it "Matching Numbers" because the drive train matches,that won't fly Sam
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-23-2006 07:28 PM
Then I think we have a cultural divide What you call chips, I call crisps, while chips are a whole different thing.
I only know the car hobby from a Philippine perspective, but here "numbers matching" has no such lofty ambitions as matching the warranty plate.
I can see easily how this would come about. You're saying that everything with a number must match that number in form. Here it means that anything with a number must match anything else with a number, if those numbers originally matched, which for Stang purposes means engine (sometimes) body and tranny.
There's no BS involved here when someone uses "numbers matching" to mean that. For things like interior, paint, etc., we simply stipulate "original interior" etc.
So if a chip is a crisp, what is a chip?
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65darkhorse
Gearhead Posts: 1282
From: east coast
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 01-23-2006 08:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback68:
So if a chip is a crisp, what is a chip?
fries.
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mustangs68
Moderator Posts: 27681
From: Hampton Va MCA#39406 M&M #12 Member Mustang Club of Tidewater
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-24-2006 06:05 PM
yep Fries...want an apple pie with that Sam
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-25-2006 05:07 PM
Matching numbers are matching numbers, doesn't seem much room for debate there. If you have a car that's exactly as the warranty plate states but the white interior has been changed to black you can't call it a 'numbers matching' car.By the way, the only numbers matching Mustang I have is my 6 cylinder 3 speed standard convertible and I couldn't care less. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '70 Mustang Convertible - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 XL
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-25-2006 06:37 PM
No but Steve, that's the whole point. There are two distinct ways to interpret "numbers matching":
1) Sam's version: The form of the car matches the numbers, i.e., including the warranty plate.
2) My version (which is not MY version, it's the version applied by everyone I know in the Flips): Anything with a number physically attached to it, should match anything else with a number physically attached to it that originally matched numerically. Thus the VIN on the dash should match the partial VIN on the block and tranny. Since upholstery, paint jobs etc. don't have numbers incorporated into them, they are not part of the deal under number (2).
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-25-2006 06:42 PM
You are missing the whole point of 'matching numbers.' These are identifications given by the factory to identify the specifics of the car, the paint color, trim level, engine and drivetrain, etc.To say one has a 'numbers matching car' is to assert it is as the factory built it, anything else is a modification. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '70 Mustang Convertible - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 XL
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 01-25-2006 06:59 PM
I raise the white flag of surrender
I will, however, agree with Scott that our local definition of "all original" is in need of a revision. If anything on the car came off a similar car to the one being sold, that makes it "all original"!
Then there's the local dealer of old barnyard finds here who advertises cars as "running". What that means, I found out, is that the engine can be induced to fire up. It does not mean the car can actually move or stop!
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