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Author
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Topic: How do I prep...
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cynot65
Gearhead Posts: 1258
From: New York
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-01-2006 07:17 PM
 
I'm doing body work now (6yrs into resto) I have a question.
What do I do to prep for primer after all of the body work is finished.
I'm doing one section at a time (right now it's trunk lid) Right quarter is done. Left quarter is next. Working from back to front. When I'm done with the body filler on those 3 sections I want to shoot it with the primer. I've got all the stuff I need except how to prep the metal for the priming stage.
I only asked here because you guys (and grrls) are the only people who I care to hear about how and what I should do.
Thanks in advance.
Tony C*------------------
65 Convertible, Vintage Burgandy/Standard Black Interior, 289, 4spd
M&M Member#450
It ain't done yet, but it'll be done right!!
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Mooney
Gearhead Posts: 2357
From: Marietta, Ga
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 05-02-2006 06:34 AM
Novice advice here-- depending on what your circumstances are. You might just spray can prime it for the time being and then once its all said and done 2K the entire car and work from there. But to prep the bare metal I'd hit with Etching primer and then primer right over that--- I know some 2K primer has etching primer in it so theres no need for it to go on before hand.Again novice advice. I'm sure mellow and a couple others will come by and chime in as well. I'd like to know the answer to this as well since I'm in the same process you sound like you're in as we speak. Hopefully I have'nt been doing it wrong LOL.
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John Z
Gearhead Posts: 506
From: Morgantown, WV
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 05-02-2006 07:53 AM
You can use etch primer over the bare metal or epoxy primer. I would go with epoxy since you can also spray it over the filler. This is the epoxy primer from an auto paint store, not the stuff in a spray can. The epoxy provides a much better seal than etch or laquer primers, better for a piece meal project where there can be a lot of time between the primer and the next step. You will need to sand the epoxy before the next coat of primer. Be sure to follow the tech sheets that come with the paint.
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-02-2006 11:15 AM
Tony, The biggest mistake people make is they think by primimg they will seal out the evironment, NOT TRUE. Water will go right through primer, bondo and rust out from underneath everything.
The first thing to figure out is what product line are you going to use. Then stay with that line from start to finish. Now I know that there are some who say that you can mix lines, but I've seen real crazy problems by doing this.
I like to use PPG products, they have user friendly directions and apply very easy. I'm doing my '65 coupe right now. I've stripped the fenders, doors, front valance to bare metal. I will use a metal cleaner (DX 579) to clean everything. Then I will spray an epoxy primer (DP90), this will seal the metal from the evironment, and it really bonds itself to the metal. I do my bodywork on top of the DP90. The bondo has a chemical reaction with the DP90 and bonds. Where ever you sand through to bare metal you need to reapply DP90, but this time cut with a reduser and use as a sealer cover the bare metals and the bondo. Now it's time to prime. I like to use a filler primer (K36) goes on thick and can block out very nice. I always cover everything once again with a sealer before I paint. This is why I like to stay with the same product like everything is designed to work with each other and it all bonds and reacts with each other. This stuff is not cheap, materals will cost what some pay for complete paint jobs. Go to an Autobody paint store they can walk you through the steps. Follow the tech sheets and cover up. The easiest way chemicals get into your body LUNGS, EYES, and CUBICALS. Use resporator,saftey glasses, and gloves. Good Luck! Darryl ------------------
Darryl Eichenlaub
1965 Mustang Coupe restomod 289,c4,body and interior mods.
1956 F-100 460,c6,9" major body mods, on going project.
1967 Mustang Fastback, father/son project 5.0,5spd,9".
1975 F250 4x4 Highboy 390,4spd,35",custom paint.
2002 Mustang v6,5spd, daughters college ride.
2001 Ford Escape, Wifes grocery getter.
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cynot65
Gearhead Posts: 1258
From: New York
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-02-2006 08:43 PM
Thanks guys,
Can I say that it's wrong to put the body filler directly on the bare metal? And it's OK to put body filler over Primer.
Here's what I did last June.
I spent over 100 hours stripping my car down to bare metal. I probably was a little over aggressive ( I don't use chemicals) in some spots but I'll get over it. I then DA'd th entire car with an 80 grit than 100 grit. I gave the car it's first sponge bath (in 30 years) with a very mild soap solution and again with clean water. The towel was barely wet on the final rinse so to speak. At that point I broke out the gunand spray the entire car with a self etching primer. I guess my question is this: Do I need to scrape it off before I do body work.?
Darryl, I appreciate the suggestion about staying with the same brand. I was thinking about these 2 PPG products DP90LF and PP402LF. The person who told me this is also a car fanatic but his passion is Vette's. He swears by it.
Last question, When the car is ready for it's first base coat, what do I do to the surface then? How do I make sure the surface is "clean". I can't imagine that a high pressure air hose is a good idea. I may say this too. this is all happening in my garage.
Truly last but not least, I bought a full face spray mask and I have a number of those plastic jump suits. Believe me I'll protect myself.
Thanks again
Tony C*------------------
65 Convertible, Vintage Burgandy/Standard Black Interior, 289, 4spd
M&M Member#450
It ain't done yet, but it'll be done right!!
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jww_289
Journeyman Posts: 71
From: Victoria Australia
Registered: Feb 2006
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posted 05-02-2006 10:04 PM
quote:
Can I say that it's wrong to put the body filler directly on the bare metal? And it's OK to put body filler over Primer.
This is a much debated topic but most body guys I have spoken to say that bondo on bare / clean metal is the best bet and that is what I am doing to an old falcon at the moment, as Darryl said it maybe OK to bondo over DP90 but I would imagine that it was designed for this, if in doubt I would get it back to bare metal. HTH,
John......
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1966 fastback
- 4v 289
- T10 4 speed
- Pony interior
JWW_289 Home Page
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-02-2006 11:05 PM
A little history on the debate about bondo over sealer comes from the old days. When bondo first came out it was recommended to actually punched holes in the metal so it would anchor itself to the metal.(now days this is unheard of) This is not far off because the bondo does need a mechanical addesion (something to grab on to) that's why we grind the metal with 24 grit. But the problem comes into play if you get a rock chip or a crack in the paint. The bondo will act just like a wick allowing the water right to the bare metal. Water + Bare metal = Rust. I've seen repairs over bare metal that rusted from underneath the repair. With a DP sealer, the product etches itself to the bare metal then the bondo has a chemical reaction with the sealer and bonds itself to that. I will grind the spot of the repair before sealing to give the bondo both a mechanical and chemical addesion. This has never failed me. As for final prep, I will wash the car a day before painting. This is one time you want to use dishsoap, it helps cut any grease and waxes. Really get after it, get all the jambs and wheel wells, everything. Then blow the car down real good every crack and cranny, this keeps crap from blowing out while painting. Day of painting I'll mask the car. Then useing 2 rags one damp with DX330 (wax & grease remover) the other to dry go over the whole car. At this point you don't want to touch the car with bare hands. (greases from your hands can cause problems) Right before you paint you'll want to tack off everything, the masking paper and the car with a Tack rag (waxy cheesecloth) while litely blowing with a blow gun. The final tacking will be with a new tack rag and just go over the part that is being painted. If crap blows in or drops in the base coat after it dries you can litely use the tack rag to clean. As for painting in your garage I've done some showroom paint work in the middle of a garage. Just blow everything down a couple of days before you paint.(allows the dust to settle) I have covered the walls with plastic. Day of painting just damp the floor with water to keep the dust down. Good Luck! Darryl
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mellowyellow
Gearhead Posts: 8198
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 05-02-2006 11:09 PM
Come from the bare metal school, but have come to believe that the DP PPG epoxy primers over bare metal, and light filler over the epoxy primer is good. THe summer before last, we had a hurricane scare and it did rain like hell and blow etc. Made a decision to roll a 66 cv outside and cover it, lashing it with clothesline and tarp. It was outside for a week. Lifting tarp, the door with just self-etch primer DID NOT hold up. Had to do over. Epoxy primer is the only primer that holds up. Some guys use the 90 on the bottom. I think I use DP40.. the 90 is satin black in shade??
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kcode
Gearhead Posts: 3415
From: alvaton,ky,usa Suburb of Bowling Green, M&M #79, MCA #29208
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 05-02-2006 11:10 PM
Tony,
I like the PPG products also, the epoxy primer DP series is not available anymore, thanks to the EPA. The DP equivalent is available in various colors to make your top coat work, that is if you use it as a sealer. Just make sure the "bondo" you used is compatible with the rest of your paints. Just wash everything down with DX330 wax and grease remover before shooting anything, primer or base. Good luck.------------------
Mike Golliver
MCA Gold Card Judge-Modifieds
65 Kcode coupe 347 stroker modified 5-speed MCA Retired
66 convertible-3 dueces and a 5-speed with a 289
01 Mustang GT Convt
05 F-150 4x4 CrewCab
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John Z
Gearhead Posts: 506
From: Morgantown, WV
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 05-03-2006 07:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cynot65:
Thanks guys, ...
At that point I broke out the gunand spray the entire car with a self etching primer. I guess my question is this: Do I need to scrape it off before I do body work.?I can't imagine that a high pressure air hose is a good idea. Truly last but not least, I bought a full face spray mask and I have a number of those plastic jump suits. Believe me I'll protect myself.
Thanks again
Tony C*
You should definitely NOT put filler over etch primer. Sand off the etch in the area before doing the repair. As others have said, it is a good idea to scuff the repair area with coarse sand paper, 24 or 36 grit, to give the surface a texture for the filler to bond to. The word "bondo" has been used several times. It should be remembered that Bondo is a brand name for a consumer quality filler. I can not remember seeing this product in a professional body shop. There are professional grade fillers that are much better. Check with your auto paint store. High pressure air blasts are commonly used to blow dust out of the nooks and cranies of cars before painting. Of course the air should be filtered and you should not use a hose that has been exposed to a self oiler for pneumatic tools. There is no NIOSH approved filter for isocynates, the chemical used to harden paints. Many do use filters and you see it all the time on TV, but these are generally shown in high tech down draft booths which have a high rate of air exchange. If you use a filter check the service life of the filter, it's probably only rated for 40 hours of use; some are rated for 40 total hours from the time the package is opened. Your safest bet is to use a supplied air system. They are about $400, but that is less than one trip to the emergency room.
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cynot65
Gearhead Posts: 1258
From: New York
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-03-2006 09:08 PM
WOW!!!! You guys are awesome!!!!
I do not intend at all to do the final paint job. I am really looking to do a lions share of the work (dirty work) to get the car ready for a professional to finish. @ $95 an hour I need to do as much as I feel capable of. I'm pretty sure they'll be plenty of "fine tuning" my efforts but hopefully when I'm finished it won't cost me an arm and a leg. maybe just a few digits... 
I forgot all about the whole air exchange concept. I need to work on that. Isocynates? what a cool word. Are they present in the Primers? Again, I'll be more than careful and I am totally aware of the shelf life of the mask filters. Would a couple of large exhaust fans create enough of an air exchange? So many questions....
Thanks
Tony C*------------------
65 Convertible, Vintage Burgandy/Standard Black Interior, 289, 4spd
M&M Member#450
It ain't done yet, but it'll be done right!!
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John Z
Gearhead Posts: 506
From: Morgantown, WV
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 05-03-2006 09:52 PM
You should ask for a MSDS (that's a material safety data sheet, but only say MSDS or you'll sound like a nerd) for each material you buy. It will give the chemicals in each component of the paint, so you can look for the isocynate. Basically it's the chemical that causes the cross linking in the paint, so its a hardening agent. Uf you're adding in a hardener, then watch out. You need to be really careful with anything electrical around your "paint booth". Any electrical spark around all that volitile overspray is a dangerous combination. Many start with the idea of doing the prep and calling in a pro to finish up the job. Generally this does not work as the pro's results will only be as good as your prep and they do not want amature prep messing with their reputation.. I suggest you either commit to doning the whole job yourself or finding your pro right now and see what you can work out with him. Paint stores can often recommend painters who do side jobs. [This message has been edited by John Z (edited 05-03-2006).]
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-04-2006 01:30 AM
I second what John as said, find a painter now and work out the details of the prep. A paint job is only as good as the prep.As for the isocynates, they are very dangerous, they are odorless, colorless, and tasteless. When the body reaches it's limit you go down with no warning signs.(I seen it happen to my Grandpa) What I do is I use new filters on my mask, (I don't paint often) If I don't use a heated booth, which bakes out the gases, I'll keep the exhaust fan going for a few days. The new paint products are very dangerous but well worth it in durability.
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cynot65
Gearhead Posts: 1258
From: New York
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-04-2006 07:39 PM
I simply can not afford to have a professional finish the car, nor do I feel I am capable of doing a professional body and paint shop job. I love my state and where I live but there's a reason why so many have left to other states. C.O.L. (cost of living). My taxes are 8K a year!
I can do what I might consider a "good enough" job, but if it has to be redone in 5 years, what did I save? I might even run into a problem with finding someone who will finish what I started. I know I have the patience to do what is needed but I do not have the knowledge of the right way to go about it. Trial and error can be VERY costly. I had professionals do the welding, engine and tranny (I've done everything else) because I wanted that done correctly. I want the body and paint done correctly too but just don't see a way to afford it @ NY body shop rates. There is a way (actually 2) that could do it but I refuse. Put it on a credit card. But, by the time I would finish paying that off, it may end up costing a couple grand more. The other way would be to try and sell my removable hardtop. For those of you who don't know I have an extremely rare piece of Mustang history. Lee Iacocca wanted to copy, for lack of a better word, the success that the T-Birds and Corvettes had with thier removable hardtops. What I have is a prototype of what Ford wanted to do. You remember the Landau(sp?) tops. White with a small oval window on the side and a small rear window. Well those were a refined design of the one that I have. It has a black vinyl top and a 65 coupe rear window. It's a SunX tinted FOMOCO window. It may be the only one of it's kind left and I've been told it could be worth a lot. There's a picture of it on the memebers pics link.
I don't know guys, right now I'm very disheartened and confused. I know deep inside that if I don't get this car painted this year I may end up just giving it to the highest effing bidder and wash my hands of the whole thing. 6 years and I don't see the end in sight if I can't have the car at least painted. Once that's done, the wiring harnesses go in, the finished engine can go in, the finished tranny, heater assembly, speedometer too, my windshield (which so far has survived 6 years) can finally get out of my basement. I don't know....I need help and encouragement and there's none around here. This started out as a happy post when I originally posted it and has turned into a head spinning, confusion creating, death spiral. I could be very close to calling it a day, counting my losses and moving on.
Thanks, as always for your input.
Tony C* ------------------
65 Convertible, Vintage Burgandy/Standard Black Interior, 289, 4spd
M&M Member#450
It ain't done yet, but it'll be done right!!
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-04-2006 09:11 PM
Tony, take a deep breath, slow down. I don't want to add any more decisions for you to make, but what about this. Body and paint work is not rocket science. All it is using the right product correctly. I learned from my Grandfather when I was a kid. I have been playing with it over the years. A couple of years ago I got laid off (a 9/11 thing) and had a opportunity to go to school. So I decided to take a body shop class to learn how to use the new products.(My Grandpa was strickly old school,God bless him). I found a community college that had a Hot Rod restoration course, that you worked on your own car. The cost of the course was under $1000.00 a quarter, you have to pay for your materials. But what you get is the knowledge of how to do it right and a new paint job. My school just bought brand new booths and everything was state of the art. Some schools offer night classes.On the flip side of the coin, if you have the thought you have it in you to do this thing by yourself, YOU CAN!!!!! I go back to this is not rocket science. There are a lot of videos to show body and paint. You just need a garage, air compressor, a few tools, materials, a car and the desire to do this. Don't get overwhelmed, just do one panel at a time, start with the least damaged panel and go from there. Use a catalized primer, K36 or K200 this stuff is a filling primer and will help you. At first don't worry about scratches just worry about making it straight and surfaces to blend. When you prime and start blocking out take your time. This is the point where the paint job will come out half assed or be a head turner. Use a guide coat, you can buy a 3m product or use lacquer flat black that speckel over what you are sanding, this will show your highs and lows. When it comes to paint for your first paint job stick with a solid color it is easier to paint and more forgiving, also stay with lighter colors. Black and darker colors will show EVERTHING!! White is the most forgiving. Stay with Base/Clearcoat it gives plenty of oppertunity to fix mistakes. Keep your piece of history, roll up your sleeves and do this thing!! Pick up a video, start with your easiest fender or door (save your hood to last, the more you do this the better you're going to get). When you prime pretend you're painting with paint, practice with the gun speed and distant again the more you do it the better you'll get. Remember it's not rocket science.
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Darryl Eichenlaub
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Buckley,Wa.
Registered: Dec 2005
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posted 05-04-2006 11:11 PM
One more thought, look into joining a local car club. There will be somebody there that can give you local, hands on advice. Like wise you can offer eithers what you know. Darryl
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cynot65
Gearhead Posts: 1258
From: New York
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 05-05-2006 08:22 AM
Thanks Darryl, That is what I was planning on doing, (one panel at a time). Can't go to school because the job hours won't allow it. As far as joining the club. I was, when I was in it. the secretary of an MCA sponsored club. Realized it was just a bunch of BS'rs. I know everyone has their own life but when you tell someone you'll be there, you should be there. After the 3rd time of someone not being there I realized I'm in this alone. I have enough material to do this job. I have enough tools also. I have enough time. I guess the best thing to to is to just regroup, lower my expectations on a completion date and just realize that if it's going to take another couple of years, so effing what. it'll get done when it's done.
Thanks for the reality check and I'll be back with more questions.
In the famous words of Edward R Murrow,
Good night and Good luck.
Tony C*------------------
65 Convertible, Vintage Burgandy/Standard Black Interior, 289, 4spd
M&M Member#450
It ain't done yet, but it'll be done right!!
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 246
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 05-05-2006 05:02 PM
Go look here. Learn all ya can.http://www.autobody101.com/ http://spi.forumup.org/index.php?mforum=spi
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John Z
Gearhead Posts: 506
From: Morgantown, WV
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 05-05-2006 07:00 PM
It's a hobby, do not set goals that take out the enjoyment. You do not need this car, you want it. So the time element does not matter. You have a real piece of history and the end product will be worth all your effort. Another really good site for auto painting is autobodystore.com, it is my favorite and the guy that runs it is great. He also sells painting tools and supplies. I buy what I can from him because of price and service. Good luck, remember to keep posting.
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 246
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 05-05-2006 11:03 PM
Nicely stated, John Z Patience, most important thing to have. http://autobodystore.com/forum/index.php
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