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Author
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Topic: Manual or Power?
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NVMP
Journeyman Posts: 61
From: Auburn, Maine
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 06-06-2006 04:54 PM
 
My '67 has manual steering from the factory. I've been researching what's involved with switching it to power steering. However, the more I read, the more I find people who are switching from power to manual because of leaky control valves or whatever. I would like to hear Pro's and Con's regarding PS vs. MS.Thanks,
Nate ------------------
Nathan Varney
Frozen in the Great White North
'67 Fastback in boxes
www.dm-solutions.com
www.surfcam.com
www.delcam.com
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rmousir
Gearhead Posts: 1124
From: Amelia, Ohio
Registered: May 2003
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posted 06-06-2006 08:16 PM
if you switch go with a rac'n pinion from flamming river. Big $$$$.Don't have power now so I can't really say. Richard
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-06-2006 08:51 PM
I can't think of anything good to say about early Mustang PS. My biggest complaint is that if you set it up for town driving (adjustment on control valve), it is way too light at highway speeds, which, combined with bump steer that these cars suffer from, can make for a hairy ride.
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 5847
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 06-06-2006 09:00 PM
My stuff is coming off, real soon too. Hoses getting on Headers, and a big loss of HP, are 2 things I can think of that I won't miss at all.
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honeyburst
Gearhead Posts: 846
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 06-06-2006 10:00 PM
one with (73) and 2 w/out (65 and 69)...my .02...no p/s.....better road feel, more hp, no leaks, cleaner engine compartment, cheaper parts, easier adjustments...  and your arms tone up REAL nice ------------------
Without life there could be no music, but without music, there can be no life.
1973 Convertible, 1965 A Code 4spd coupe, Past: 1969 GT, 1967 6cyl coupe, 1968 coupe
Two Rivers Ford, Parts Dept., Nashville, TN
www.geocities.com/littlewhitecoupe
www.geocities.com/jezebeldream
www.geocities.com/my73conv
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NVMP
Journeyman Posts: 61
From: Auburn, Maine
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 06-06-2006 10:31 PM
Thanks for the input. Maybe I'll use the 19:1 box and keep it manual.Nate ------------------
Nathan Varney
Frozen in the Great White North
'67 Fastback in boxes
www.dm-solutions.com
www.surfcam.com
www.delcam.com
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trsulliv
Journeyman Posts: 21
From: Racine, WI
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 06-06-2006 11:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback68:
I can't think of anything good to say about early Mustang PS. My biggest complaint is that if you set it up for town driving (adjustment on control valve), it is way too light at highway speeds, which, combined with bump steer that these cars suffer from, can make for a hairy ride.
How do you adjust the control valve? Can you reduce the input to make it harder to turn at all speeds?
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68mustang351w
Gearhead Posts: 558
From: San Jose, Ca
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 06-06-2006 11:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rmousir:
if you switch go with a rac'n pinion from flamming river. Big $$$$.Don't have power now so I can't really say. Richard
You have one ? Ive heard some bad things about them, mostly about the fitment issues. Not on this board, but on a different forum. Supposedly they came out with a new version but I am not positive. Also, you have to watch out if you have headers as some are compatible others are not. For what its worth, if I had the money I would go with TCP.. David F.
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-06-2006 11:50 PM
quote:
How do you adjust the control valve? Can you reduce the input to make it harder to turn at all speeds?
That's the theory. There's a cap on the valve facing towards the left side of the car, held by 2 screws. Remove the cap and inside there's an adjustment nut. From memory, tighten it for tighter steering, back it off for looser steering.
Just one more thought re: going manual. Check that your steering column rag joint is in good condition. They can and do break if you spend too much time doing full-lock turns while the car is standing still..
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rmousir
Gearhead Posts: 1124
From: Amelia, Ohio
Registered: May 2003
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posted 06-07-2006 08:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by 68mustang351w:
You have one ? Ive heard some bad things about them, mostly about the fitment issues. Not on this board, but on a different forum. Supposedly they came out with a new version but I am not positive. Also, you have to watch out if you have headers as some are compatible others are not. For what its worth, if I had the money I would go with TCP.. David F.
Not yet. I will go with a rac conversion when the time comes. Will not go power yet. Read a article in mustangs and fords mag and they were very happy with the flaming river set up. Said it almost felt like a power set up.
Richard.
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kinger44
Gearhead Posts: 376
From: Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 06-07-2006 08:42 AM
My 68 didn't have it and I don't plan to add it. Like you I was surprised at the references to deleting it you see here and in magazines. It was a bit of a shock when I first started driving my car but now I'm used to it. Also, it keeps the girls from wanting to drive it!!!Lastly, we only go straight anyway right? Good luck, Gregg ------------------
68 coupe, red on black. FULL RESTORATION UNDERWAY!!! http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/kinger44.html
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NVMP
Journeyman Posts: 61
From: Auburn, Maine
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 06-07-2006 09:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by kinger44:
My 68 didn't have it and I don't plan to add it. Like you I was surprised at the references to deleting it you see here and in magazines. It was a bit of a shock when I first started driving my car but now I'm used to it. Also, it keeps the girls from wanting to drive it!!!Lastly, we only go straight anyway right? Good luck, Gregg
I haven't driven the car with power steering, so I won't be missing anything per se. The real problem is that the wife will *still* want to drive it...
This car won't see much racing action kinger, it's the other car that will definitely NOT have PS since it's life will be 1/4-mile straights!
Nate ------------------
Nathan Varney
Frozen in the Great White North
'67 Fastback in boxes
www.dm-solutions.com
www.surfcam.com
www.delcam.com
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 3394
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 06-07-2006 09:31 AM
I had a 68 with power steering.
It never leaked a drop and drove like a charm.
I just discovered some history on the car though and I cant be sure if the steering box is a real power box (16:1) because it came out of a 69.
With power steering it was really nice to drive, but I wanted the Hp and I wanted to add headers without any heat headaches or drop brackets. I did the conversion to manual steering and put the headers in. I love the headers but hate the manual steering. Part of what I dont like isnt the effort required but the number of turns from lock to lock - when combined with the increased effort it makes twisty roads kinda scary.Now I want the power steering back but I dont want the old style. I plan on a power rack and pinion setup with much faster ratio, but not flaming rivers since they state that it wont work with headers. Mustangandfords.com just had an article about installing the total control one $2000 is a lot of money but its a quality kit and includes everything you need (pump, resorvoir, and lines etc...) It even shows them fitting on a car with headers! ------------------
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66 fastback
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Califon, NJ 07830
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 06-07-2006 09:49 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rmousir:
Not yet. I will go with a rac conversion when the time comes. Will not go power yet. Read a article in mustangs and fords mag and they were very happy with the flaming river set up. Said it almost felt like a power set up.Richard.
Don't believe everything you read, these magazines are supported by advertising dollars, hence many of the "favorable" articles for products that don't stand up. The F/River rack kit is and will probably always remain a waste of money. I was one of the first to purchase this POS and was unable to get it installed due to header interference. Bear in mind I was able to purchase the same exact set of headers that F/R claimed to have used to make the kit up. I contacted them asking which headers, they told me where they borrowed them from, I contacted them, they had F/R send them back and them on to me. The pinion shaft out of the rack laid dead center on the tube when I dropped the headers in place. Even if they have finally designed a bracket that will work you will still be fighting bump steer. Stay far away from this kit. You turning radius will also increase with this kit any of the others out there. I ended up using a new F/R steering gear, a Shelby quick steer kit with the bearing instead of a bushing. I have a Moto-Lita steering wheel that is smaller in diameter than the original Mustang ones. I also have 225/50-16 tires on 8" rims and the steering is only a LITTLE heavy when the car is not moving. Once the car is in motion, it is easy to turn. Remember that you can change the camber setting of the front end alignment to ease the steering effort. The original P/S was just like driving a boat, car drifts a little to the left, you turn to compensate, oops to much, back to the right, oops too much, you get the idea. My recommendation is, replace, rebuild, or correctly adjust your current steering gear. Convert the car to manual steering and enjoy it.
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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead Posts: 2814
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 06-07-2006 10:40 AM
I just converted my 69 from manual to power. I'll never go back to manual. Steering gears, whether manual or power, wear out and get sloppy. I installed all new parts in mine. No leaks, no header issues. Works like a charm.
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 1343
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 06-07-2006 11:55 AM
The power steering on my 68 has been pretty good to me so far.It doesn't leak but it does have a bit of a floaty feeling at times.I'm sure part of that is steering box and control valve wear though.------------------
68 J-Code,Sprint,306 4 speed,4.11s 13.69@101...............
66 coupe 289 4 speed, 3.20 cruiser http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy.html http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/mustangboy2.html
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Fastback68
Gearhead Posts: 4511
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99
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posted 06-07-2006 12:34 PM
One way of looking at it is relative to everything else. Bar the gear box, everything else on my 68's PS set-up is new or restored. It still doesn't come close to my 68 Camaro that has had no work done on it in the 5 years I've owned it, and I reckon before then either. I have four 71-73 Stangs with the original steering gearboxes, not a cent spent on them except for one with leakage issues, and they're better than my 68 by far.
I'm no mechanical engineer, but people say - and I believe them - that the fundamental design for the early Stang PS was simply not that good.
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 5847
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 06-07-2006 01:27 PM
OK, this has got me thinking now. I'm converting from PS to MS with the converter, and rebuilding the front, but now I'm wondering if I should change the box or not??? The one on it has some slop, but I don't really know what to compare it to, to see if it's real bad. They're may be a 1/2" play before it starts to turn the wheels. Thanks for any info, and sorry to intrude, just made sense to post it here since this one is already started.------------------
William
The easiest way to find something lost, is to buy a replacement. 68 Coupe
289
C4
3:55's/Trac-Lok
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66 fastback
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Califon, NJ 07830
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 06-07-2006 01:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 68 Coop:
OK, this has got me thinking now. I'm converting from PS to MS with the converter, and rebuilding the front, but now I'm wondering if I should change the box or not??? The one on it has some slop, but I don't really know what to compare it to, to see if it's real bad. They're may be a 1/2" play before it starts to turn the wheels. Thanks for any info, and sorry to intrude, just made sense to post it here since this one is already started.
While I am no great fan of F/R, I do like the gear I bought from them. It is the 16:1 ratio box, long shaft version. As I understand it, while you can adjust the gear you currently have, some of the "play" may remain afterwards. The gear does tend to wear in the straight ahead position, since this is the position where it spends most of its time. If you adjust the play out of the gear with the wheels turned, as you pass thru the straight position some play may be noticeable. If you adjust the play out with the wheels straight, the load between the gears is increased as you turn the wheels. So, depending on the condition of your gear a replacement or a rebuild may be the only solution.
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 5847
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 06-07-2006 01:46 PM
The converter is the one NPD sells, and to clarify, the front end work is the rebuild kit Mustangs Plus sells. I just thought I could get a new box for MS, and it would bolt right in??? Thanks for the info.------------------
William
The easiest way to find something lost, is to buy a replacement. 68 Coupe
289
C4
3:55's/Trac-Lok
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66 fastback
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Califon, NJ 07830
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 06-07-2006 02:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 68 Coop:
The converter is the one NPD sells, and to clarify, the front end work is the rebuild kit Mustangs Plus sells. I just thought I could get a new box for MS, and it would bolt right in??? Thanks for the info.
The new box does bolt right in, consdier checking the F/River gears, they use bearings in place of bushings for the shafts.
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NVMP
Journeyman Posts: 61
From: Auburn, Maine
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 06-07-2006 02:12 PM
It seems as though the majority prefers the manual steering. Here's what I can gather: With a Shelby quick steer kit, adjusted camber, and good steering parts, the manual is easier to live with. However, if all of the parts in a PS setup are new (which mine would be) then there doesn't seam to be much of a headache.Nate ------------------
Nathan Varney
Frozen in the Great White North
'67 Fastback in boxes
www.dm-solutions.com
www.surfcam.com
www.delcam.com
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66 fastback
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: Califon, NJ 07830
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 06-07-2006 02:42 PM
Agreed to a point, the system used in these cars has virtually no road feel. Numb is an accurate description, it all comes down to what you want to do with the car, cruise or drive.
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Jake11
Gearhead Posts: 246
From: Banning,Ca,USA
Registered: Oct 2005
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posted 06-07-2006 07:36 PM
JMO. The P/S system on these cars is crude when
compared to newer ones, shure. It works
pretty damn good though. If the pump and
control valve are up to the job, you can
steer the car with 1 finger. Then your
G/F or Wife can still manage to park it, if
need be.
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 5847
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 06-07-2006 11:34 PM
I remember MS cars growing up, they were hell if you sitting still and trying to turn the wheels, but if you are rolling it wasn't THAT bad. Weighing the 2, I would rather have the HP gain over easy steering.------------------
William
The easiest way to find something lost, is to buy a replacement. 68 Coupe
289
C4
3:55's/Trac-Lok
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BornInAFord
Gearhead Posts: 610
From: Bend, OR, USA
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 06-08-2006 12:15 AM
You can make the manual steering much easier to live with if you aren't fighting against the stock bushing-type idler arm. I'd suggest upgrading to roller kit for your idler arm or a Moog K8158 for your 67 (which is a greasable gusher bearing type idler). I put the 65-66 version (Moog K8058) on my 66 coupe and the ease of steering went way up. It is as easy to steer with 215/60-R15 "sticky" tires on as it was with the old idler arm and 195/75-R14 tires. Although my 19:1 steering isn't "rack-and-pinion" precise, it has greatly increased feel over the old system... I could barely move my old idler arm when it was in a vise using a breaker bar. The new arm could freely spin.  Now my wife could drive the car if it weren't for that stiff clutch! 
Daniel
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zieber
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Central Coast, CA, USA
Registered: Mar 2006
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posted 06-08-2006 02:41 AM
I had almost decided to put the PS back in but you all talked me out of it for now.
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NVMP
Journeyman Posts: 61
From: Auburn, Maine
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 06-08-2006 09:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by BornInAFord:
You can make the manual steering much easier to live with if you aren't fighting against the stock bushing-type idler arm. I'd suggest upgrading to roller kit for your idler arm or a Moog K8158 for your 67 (which is a greasable gusher bearing type idler). I put the 65-66 version (Moog K8058) on my 66 coupe and the ease of steering went way up. It is as easy to steer with 215/60-R15 "sticky" tires on as it was with the old idler arm and 195/75-R14 tires. Although my 19:1 steering isn't "rack-and-pinion" precise, it has greatly increased feel over the old system... I could barely move my old idler arm when it was in a vise using a breaker bar. The new arm could freely spin. Now my wife could drive the car if it weren't for that stiff clutch!
Daniel
Thanks. I'll have to look for those parts!
Nate ------------------
Nathan Varney
Frozen in the Great White North
'67 Fastback in boxes
www.dm-solutions.com
www.surfcam.com
www.delcam.com
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BornInAFord
Gearhead Posts: 610
From: Bend, OR, USA
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 06-08-2006 11:50 PM
Nate, the manual steering one is K8161 and the PS one is K8158. Here is a description you might find helpful. The pictures look like below...
 As far as I can tell, the stock rubber bushed idler is the part that causes most of the binding and stiffness in steering. Freeing this up will make a big difference. 
Daniel
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BornInAFord
Gearhead Posts: 610
From: Bend, OR, USA
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 06-09-2006 12:09 AM
Oh, by the way, don't listen to those who will tell you that the car won't return to center if you use a greasable or roller bearing for your idler. My car snaps to center just fine. The return to center should come from small amounts of "toe in" and mostly from positive caster (I'm running +3°), not from binding in the idler! With the free moving idler, chances are the rest of the steering components will wear longer, too. You can buy the above mentioned idlers from Rockauto, Summit, e-bay (I got mine new for a good deal). Here's what mine looks like (will be viewable for a few more months):
 Notice the new, non-stock style of bracket--this will replace both the arm and the bracket with the new bracket and the "roller" arm. It took me less than an hour to remove the old one and install the new one with common tools and I didn't need to get another alignment when done since I didn't touch any of the alignment points.
If you are handy in the shop, a roller kit from Cobra Automotive or Mustangs Plus (Restomods Plus???) will set you back only about $60, which is pretty cheap compared to the gains.
Daniel
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