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  New NHRA rule changes are out

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Author Topic:   New NHRA rule changes are out
TurboGT
Gearhead

Posts: 318
From: Hutchinson, Kansas
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-01-2005 03:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TurboGT        Reply w/Quote
Late model EFI engines in older Super Stock cars anybody?

http://www.nhra.com/apcm/templates/news_template.asp?articleid=9034&zoneid=8

GT class changes
Super Stock GT was created in the mid-1980s to provide a place for original-equipment manufacturers to show off their latest body styles while allowing competitors to use engine combinations in which these competitors had invested years of research and development. NHRA has found that many late-model engines are more affordable and competitive than the older “muscle car” powertrains, and that older car bodies are becoming easier to restore using reproduction parts. For these reasons, NHRA is dropping the “1980 and newer” body rule for GT and will allow virtually any engine and body-style combination from the same manufacturer.

“There are many, many backhalved ‘muscle cars’ running in ‘fast street car’ competition throughout the country,” said Danny Gracia, NHRA national technical director. “Some of them are natural Super Stock platforms, except for the high cost of building the correct engine with all of the proper casting numbers, etc. Now, a guy with a basically restored backhalf Camaro or Nova, or even a ’57 Chevy, can buy or build a late-model engine, such as the LS1, and go Super Stock racing. Even a ’70 Challenger with a new Hemi Magnum engine will be accepted. We think this will add a whole new flavor to Super Stock and open the door for new competitors.”

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Mark Walton '83 Mustang GT 2.3 Turbo NHRA SS/O
'69 "off brand" NHRA SS/EA

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 11-01-2005 09:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
Interesting..........Thanks for sharing, Mark.


So, Mark, Alex, Marty (and any of the other class racers out there):

1) What is the general opinion of these changes?

2) Does anyone think that this will be good, bad or just plain ugly ?

3) Does anyone think this change will change the face of SuperStock racing significantly?

4) Will this change bring more folks out to watch the Sportsman racing?

Stephen & Horace Johnson
Gearhead

Posts: 275
From: Gadsden, AL
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 11-01-2005 11:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stephen & Horace Johnson        Reply w/Quote
I dont have a problem with it. I knew it was goin to happen regardless if the racers declined it. I dont like the idea of the SS/AH class. I wish that the chevies and fords could have ran in SS/AA, but oh well. I just hope since SS/AH will be a HEMI class only that they do not include them in the entrys for SS eliminator so that more SS'ers can get into a National Event.

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"Stand It Up" Stephen Johnson #2162
"Happy" Horace Johnson #2167
NHRA-IHRA SS/D 427 Ford Fairlane (Ex-Van Cleve)
National Record Holder
1985 Mustang GT
10.56 at 129mph 331

TurboGT
Gearhead

Posts: 318
From: Hutchinson, Kansas
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-02-2005 08:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for TurboGT        Reply w/Quote
There's no doubt that it will taint the original spirit of the class, and even the original spirit of the GT classes. For the owner of an older car, in most cases it will be advantageous to stick with one of the original combinations, due to the fact that they'd have to run with the "aero" cars in GT.

It'll be interesting to see what specific car/engine combinations get created out of this ruling. It'll open the door for some early cars that aren't typically seen in Super Stock.

Personally, I still favor the traditional SS cars, which retain their original drivetrains. I hope this ruling doesn't make them dinosaurs.

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Mark Walton '83 Mustang GT 2.3 Turbo NHRA SS/O
'69 "off brand" NHRA SS/EA

Marty Buth
Journeyman

Posts: 72
From:
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 11-02-2005 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marty Buth        Reply w/Quote
I think it is really hard to think of all the impact this could have on our sport. I have always had what most would consider "oddball" combinations and this rule change seems to inspire more of that. I agree with Mark, it seems to add to the confusion about our sport. The spirt was to stay as close to the original car, because the fans can understand that better. Obviously, it doesn't matter what we think or prefer, the rule has changed and time will be the judge of whether this was good or bad for the sport. The class racing numbers have been consistently increasing over a number of years from what I hear. Maybe this will trigger more interest and it will grow some more. We will see! I think you asked some really good questions, Ryan. I wish I was smart enough to give you the answers, but I know that I am not. I would be interested in hearing Alex's opinions. He is usually very inciteful on these topics.

Marty

capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 8777
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-02-2005 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man        Reply w/Quote
yea, you never have to wonder what alex is thinking!!! cause he will tell you exactly what he is thinking!!

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.25 @93mph 1/8
1.54 60ft 50 % of the fun dragracing is meeting people who will give you the shirt off their back to wipe the grease off your hands.
M&M member #839 http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/mike470/adel2.jpg

Hans olsson
Gearhead

Posts: 936
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-02-2005 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans olsson        Reply w/Quote
Stock/Super Stock
"To give Stock and Super Stock racers more flexibility to move within the class structure, racers will be allowed to move up or down one class from their car’s natural class."

I like this change!


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  • VIN 1F05M139343
  • 71 Mach 1 Ram-Air
  • 351C 4V 285 HP
  • F-G/Stock Aut
  • Stockers are way cool!

TurboGT
Gearhead

Posts: 318
From: Hutchinson, Kansas
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-02-2005 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TurboGT        Reply w/Quote
Yeah, there will probably be a lot of cars (drivers too?) going on a diet over the winter!

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Mark Walton '83 Mustang GT 2.3 Turbo NHRA SS/O
'69 "off brand" NHRA SS/EA

Tom G
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Bethlehem, Pa USA
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-03-2005 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom G        Reply w/Quote
Maybe they'll (NHRA) will raise the payouts!
Fat chance!
:

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67 Mustang F/B 302 GT-40X FMS engine RPM Air Gap 650 Holley DP Crane 1.7 roller rockers, Edelbrock Performer Nitrous, Dynomax ceramic headers WC-T5, cable clutch Flows X Pipe 3.89 9". Clearwater Aqua GT Clone Vintage wheel works 40 series 16X8 225 front 255/50 rear drag radials 308 RWHP@5800rpm 300 tq NA 385rwhp 380 w 75shot 13.11 @111mph
92 VERT triple black 5 speed, 88 GT 5 spd 77k original miles Red and Silver

TurboGT
Gearhead

Posts: 318
From: Hutchinson, Kansas
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 11-03-2005 12:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TurboGT        Reply w/Quote
Funny-but-sad story:

I was thumbing through a 1969 National Dragster the other day. The payout schedule for Super Stock at a Divisional race is the same now as it was then!

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Mark Walton '83 Mustang GT 2.3 Turbo NHRA SS/O
'69 "off brand" NHRA SS/EA

Buff Daddy
Gearhead

Posts: 366
From: Enon Valley PA USA
Registered: Feb 2000

posted 11-03-2005 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buff Daddy        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Interesting..........Thanks for sharing, Mark.


So, Mark, Alex, Marty (and any of the other class racers out there):

1) What is the general opinion of these changes?

2) Does anyone think that this will be good, bad or just plain ugly ?

3) Does anyone think this change will change the face of SuperStock racing significantly?

4) Will this change bring more folks out to watch the Sportsman racing?


1) I personally don't like it. The AHFS can not police the cars/engines we have now, so lets add hundreds more possible combinations to the mix. Doesn't make sense. Hope the HP Committee, Tech personal and everyone else has stock in headache medicine.

2) Possibly all three. I must admit that it will add some interesting combinations to S/S. But, also, see opinion #1. There are possibilities of some new combinations running amuck in the "new" classes.

3) Absolutely. S/S will never be the same.

4) I doubt it. People don't come out now, because we are not properly promoted, as far as the postive aspects of our classes and our sport.

My $.02, with change coming.

Mike

------------------
Mike Carr
Stock Eliminator
IHRA HF/SA 18
IHRA 1/8 and 1/4 mile Nat'l Record Holder
NHRA B/FS & EF/S 1302
Street ET/Street Automatic/Modified/Pro/No-Box 1302
E-mail: dragrace@ccia.com

Tom G
Gearhead

Posts: 1069
From: Bethlehem, Pa USA
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 11-03-2005 02:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom G        Reply w/Quote
If they are trying to generate more interest in Super Stock or other classes then they should bump up the payout significantly. I know preaching to a dead horse. :

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 11-04-2005 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Buff Daddy:
People don't come out now, because we are not properly promoted, as far as the postive aspects of our classes and our sport.


Mike,

What would you suggest the promoters (NHRA/IHRA) do regarding, [to paraphrase], 'They need to promote the postive aspects of our classes and our sport'.....?


TomG stated, "If they are trying to generate more interest in Super Stock or other classes then they should bump up the payout significantly." However, I only see that as a way of attracting more RACERS, not really increasing the number of FANS/people who come out to watch the races; and these are the folks who typically buy the food, drinks, hats & T-shirts and then take no prize $$ home.

When the local track has it's 50K$ bracket race, do ya think the grandstands are full? Heck no! Do they sell much food? Heck no, the racers pack in their own... The fans are the biggest profit-margin-makers for the tracks; not more racers. That's why the tracks cater to the fans. We know that the bigger crowds come to watch the '200 to 300+ mph & wild paint' racers run. How often do you see RACE FANS leave after the Sportsman racers and miss the Pro passes?

Let's consider if the tracks were to switch the timeslots for the Pros & Sportsman; meaning run the Pros on Thurs/Fri and the Sportsman on Sat/Sun. We can guess that the total track $$ income would be less because the fans only have so much time & money to spend. Most fans hold a job & work during the week. Unless they're willing to take Thurs/Fri off as "vacation days" or without any pay, they'll hold out until the weekend to go watch some racing. If someone was to take an exit poll at the spectator's gate asking folks who were there all day Saturday, what car race was their favorite, I'd guess that most respondents would respond with one of the Pro match ups. With that information in hand and if I was a track owner, I would also schedule the Pro cars to run on the weekend, when MORE FANS have an opportunity to come to the track and take it in; hence giving me an opportunity to make more $$; which pays my bills; taxes, light & water, gate/parking, security, EMS, tech & other support personnel, etc....and, lastly, improves my profit margin.

I don't know what it would take to attract more folks to watch the Sportsman classes.
Personally, I can't understand why folks pay to watch a professional GOLF or other 'ball' game when they spend their entertainment monies to be watching, hearing & FEELING a drag race.... but I guess if everyone went to the races, then I'd have to set farther up/back from the fence, because the prices would go up - LOL - so maybe it's good that so many folks prefer other sports!

Yet the only way I can imagine how the payouts would go up for Sportsman classes, is if more folks would attended their races, on Thurs/Fri.....

Never-the-less, there's something to be said & admired about the spirit of Sportsman racers; because these are the guys that continue to race "for the love of the game" and not because it pays well...and personally, I respect that much more than some Pro teams that many times seem like 'bought-n'-paid-for-whores' for their sponsors.

Ok, I'll step down now....Just my 2 cents,
Ryan

Capri
Gearhead

Posts: 1747
From: Lyons, ILL, USA M&M member #007... the secret agent member
Registered: May 99

posted 11-04-2005 10:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Capri        Reply w/Quote
Well, My opinion is this was not a good idea. Change sometimes is good but..

Yeah ok, so you can take an early model car and run it with a late model combination. In a way not bad because of parts availablity, but on the other hand, will other rules change for safety? Tublar control arms and K-members that are stronger than factory 40 year old parts? Im sure they never bothered to think about this stuff. Also, a fuel injected early model car would use a computer system and they are already complaining about computer stuff. OR are they gonna let you run it as a carbureted deal also?? As said earlier, AHFS cant keep up with what there is now.

The SS/AH deal is a joke and shows mopig is afraid that someone else might come into SS/AA and steal some thunder.

If fans arent being told whats going on, how can they make a decision to come to an event and watch? This is NHRA/IHRA's problem in the first place. LACK of promotion. Look at an ad for a divisional race. Featuring 260mph funny cars is their headline. Big deal. If Im a spectator, I know Fuel queers run over 300 and blow up their stuff more. Why would I know? As a spectator I take pictures. Wanna see what a fuel car looks like going over backwards on film? I can show you. Thats the spectator excitement. Who crashes and blows up stuff. When at a national, they never bother to tell you whats going on. Especially at IHRA. If you arent watching the pros, then you should be buying beer and t-shirts. They make it seem as the racing is over. ON top of that, now you get treated like crap as a racer. They need help in the personality department. Thats a whole different thread.....


Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-04-2005 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

68F100
Gearhead

Posts: 2835
From: Burlington, Iowa
Registered: Oct 99

posted 11-04-2005 08:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68F100        Reply w/Quote
I don't pretend to know anything about what it's like to be a racer, but I am a fan. Maybe not a typical fan, but a fan nonetheless.

With that said, I LIKE watching the pros. On tv. I've been to Cordova once(met the Moneymaker crew) and I've been to Eddyville 3 times now. I LOVE watching the sportsman and bracket racing. Real cars that real guys built and they race them. That's what I want to do someday. It would be cool to see funny cars and top fuel, but for my money, I get way more entertainment watching the "little guys".

Them Ozark Mountain guys are crazy too.

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 9835
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-04-2005 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66        Reply w/Quote
How about the new rule against aluminum or titanium nuts, studs or bolts in the general section?

SteveW

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-05-2005 12:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
How about the new rule against aluminum or titanium nuts, studs or bolts in the general section?

SteveW


Trying to get some clarification on that one Steve.
All supercharged cars are required to have "break-a-way" aluminum studs to retain the blowers.
Every Pro stock out there has titanium studs and lug nuts.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1889
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-05-2005 02:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil        Reply w/Quote
Personally, I don`t like this "new direction" in Super Stock at all! But then, I was also against the new SS "GT" classes when they came out about 20 years ago! I still much prefer the "traditional" S/S & Stockers, that actually use engines that were available in these models when the cars were new. To me, as a younger fan, part of the mystique of Stock & S/S was watching cars with stock appearing engines & bodys running faster than they appeared to be cabable of. 9 second 68 Camaro`s with a 350 & a QUADRAJET?! 10 second 289`s with 1.72" intake valves and a 4100 "flat top" Autolite 480 cfm carb? How the hell did they do THAT!?! with a flat steel hood and full interior? THATS what drew me into Stock &S/S racing, many years ago, mainly as an enthusiastic fan, and in recent years, in my own Stock Eliminator Mustang. Somehow, I fail to see the "Stock" part of a 2005 Chevy Cavalier that has been built with 350 V8 and RWD, in a almost totally fabricated tube chassis. Now, how is a 67 Camaro with a late model EFI LS1 engine gonna look much different than a typical CAR CRAFT "Resto rod"? Frankly, unless NHRA was to give some sort of help to the older "relics', I doubt many early car/late engine combo`s would be built. I mean, it just doesn`t make a lot of sense to built a boxy 66 Nova vs a sleek late model Camaro or Firebird, which has major factory engine set back, plus a VEERRY long front nose to trip the beams with. As for the seperate Hemi class, what a croc! I love SS/AA cars as is (almost as much as the few SS/A cars!), this SS/AH deal just adds another (unneccasary) class, when NHRA has been trying to reduce classes in Stock! My opinion, Put the SS/Modified cars into Comp, and leave the true S/S & GT cars as it has been for many years. And quit adding more "enhancments" that do little except make an already class even more expensive! I had always hoped to eventually move up into S/Stock, now, I`m not so sure.

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78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@131.5mph 1.32 60 foot
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA M/Stock 302 5speed. 12.36@106.88mph 1.63 60 foot
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-05-2005 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Just wait until you see the first old body mazda RX-7 with a late model rotary EFI engine in SS.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

Randy S
Journeyman

Posts: 35
From: WI
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 11-05-2005 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy S        Reply w/Quote
The prospect of putting an EFI engine in a muscle car might be interesting to talk about but I can't see anyone seriously considering doing it. The guys driving the muscle cars are running them because they like the fact that their cars are from the muscle car days. The guys that get into the EFI stuff will just run the newer body styles anyway, plus they probably have the extra cash flow to run them and hire the right people with the knowledge of the EFIs to get everything out of their cars. And as far as raising the payouts, even if there would be a ton of people in the stands on Thursday and Friday, it would never see the racer. It would just be a bonus for the sanctioning body. They would rather have the contingency folks take car of that. But there is a whole new topic too, like just getting the money owed to you for a win and so on. And all I know is if ricers and sport compacts start showing up at these events, I just hope they bring the only real "show" they have.....the swimsuit competition. I'll be in the front row with Alex and Tony and others, because I will refuse to watch those cars race.

[This message has been edited by Randy S (edited 11-05-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Randy S (edited 11-05-2005).]

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